|
OOC Area: The Raid at Ketaris
| |
| Jarec_Rissen | Date: Friday, 07 Aug 2015, 11:20 AM | Message # 1 |
 Ensign
Group: Users
Messages: 18
Status: Offline
| So, to make a few points, largely to outline certain factors and the issues inherent in freeform RP versus utilizing vessels that have given stats intended for a tabletop RP versus computer game stats versus canonical/movie stats.
So, taking one issue at a time.
In Regards to Mass-Firing Of Ordnance:
In this post, I did indeed mass-fire full banks of concussion missiles; to wit, 256 of them. Now, isn't that a lot? Yes, it is. Certain factors come into account, however.
1) Even assuming (using the Mobquet for example) that it can fire one concussion missile every 10 seconds, that's 6 per minute and with a magazine of 32, that's roughly 5.3 minutes for the whole lot. Not an unimpressive amount of time, even for a slow-firing transport.
2) Working under the assumption that concussion missiles (hailed as the 'anti-fighter' warhead versus proton torpedoes for the most part) are similar to proton torpedoes, the statement of being able to make a 90 degree turn in the radius of a meter applies here, or so I'd argue. The ability to fire directly outwards, make a turn and track a target isn't unfeasible.
3) A side point: these Mobquet transports in question are not crewed by civilians, but Imperial naval personnel. This was as per Jace, and I will back it up via quote: [Wednesday, August 5, 2015 8:44 PM] Jace Varitek: Yes although I didn't intend any civilian ships to be there. It's an Imperial military convoy. Probably not huge. Maybe like 10 ships at most.
4) In the case of Jamie's post, I actually quite concur with a limit; I don't necessarily concur with his limit; after all, concussion missiles mounted on such craft as the Nebulon-B2 were intended for anti-starfighter work, and being able to fire one concussion missile per turn, even against a 6 ship flight, means it is six turns before the ship can even engage each individual craft with a single warhead.
5) My argument for high-volume fire is not intended as an instant-win scenario. Drawing off practically every space battle in the Thrawn campaign, the Vong series (despite how hated said series is, a lot of the authors wrote the space battles in good detail and included relevant facts), massed fire of warheads, especially from maximum distance, serves a valid point: distraction. How, you ask? Let's take the 256 concussion missile barrage. Alone, against a solo ship, it would be devastating. With three ships that have a massed combined firepower of 216 turbolasers (assuming the 'batteries' spoken of on the assault frigate contain 4 cannons per battery), 40+ ion cannons and 15 laser cannons, not to mention the numerous starfighters capable of firing in a generalized area, it forces instead the opposing vessel to create a flak screen by firing their weapons as quickly as possible at the attacking swarm of warheads. In such a case (for the RP), I would advocate the destruction of even 75-90% of the missiles, if not more, depending on the amount of cannon turned towards their destruction. 80% of 256 is roughly 204-205 warheads. An impressive amount to be shot down simply by massed fire, not including what could be added to in terms of snubfighter fire. It doesn't have to be accurate, it's the 'wall of lead' theory.
6) What does the above explanation mean? It's sort of reinforcing the 'you can attack or defend rule, but not both' that's been a staple in many ways in the RP for an extended amount of time. It forces an attacking fleet to dump their cannon attacks against the warheads, giving the opposing fleet time to run, maneuver, what have you for what is in essence a 'free post' for the most part until the concussion missile swarm has been resolved.
A Note on Starfighters:
1) We all love the A-wing, but certain points ought to be brought up in the RP. They can be found here of course.
2) "The earliest A-wings were hand-assembled."
3) "More serious was the slow production rate, allowing the fielding of just a few full squadrons. Only one full unit, Green Squadron, was present at the Battle of Endor in 4 ABY. Elsewhere, A-wings were issued to a handful of crack units, like Nomad Squadron and Pash Cracken's wing." A-wings are not an extremely plentiful unit, despite how prevalent they are in video games.
A Note on Tractor Beams:
1) Since I didn't see a mention of it on Jamie's OOC post, I hope he won't mind me dropping his quote here for reference: Quote Oh final final thought: for military tractor projectors; locking snubfighters is no problem if theyre unshielded. Lots and lots of incidents of quite quick but unshielded craft getting locked, even shielded is possible its just more slippery. And the tractor beams on it are Medium range, if the entire convoy is within Turbolaser range which it is.. all of your ties are in range, I'll accept half of the three evading the lock-on or just being slowed and so just suffering performance losses thanks to being encumbered but that's generous and taking into account the elite status of these craft.
In the numerous books and such (yes, I know, largely no longer cannon), attempts to snare snubfighters, Republic/Rebellion small craft and such, by Imperials, is often extremely difficult. Sure, the Falcon and other freighters get nabbed a lot, but they also are much larger and, overall, slower than, say, a TIE Interceptor.
2) One also has to consider, for the purposes of RP at least, that Imperial tractor-beam operators likely have more experience than their Rebel counterparts at this stage of Star Wars history when it comes to the operation of such equipment. The rebels aren't often seen tractoring in Imperial snubcraft.
3) A note for Jamie, personally: I posted the death of one of my squadron already to make it realistic.
In Closing:
Granted, trying to keep RP even is a damned hard thing. I'll welcome Jamie's commentary here, of course, but ultimately, I leave it in Management's hands to resolve, pending Jamie and I coming to an agreement of some sort. Sorry for the extra work, guys. It's just hard at times (as Jamie agreed) when certain sourcebooks are out of date or too old and you end up with a craft (such as the Alderranian War Frigate) that has an apparent speed of 80 MGLT, putting it on par with the Carrack-class which it outguns by more than 10 cannons.
Jarec 'Ironside' Rissen
Colonel, Imperial Starfighter Corps
Flight Leader, 132nd TIE Interceptor Squadron 'The Blackscars'
|
| |
|
|
| Jace_Varitek | Date: Friday, 07 Aug 2015, 12:52 PM | Message # 2 |
 Commander
Group: Administrators
Messages: 180
Status: Offline
| I've read this entire post and Jamie's too, and at this point I'm not aware that anything is actually in dispute. Never once in Jamie's post is the word "Ketaris" used, nor any reference made to that thread. He raises a lot of points which indirectly bear on the events at Ketaris, but as far as I can tell he's not challenging anything so much as pointing out that these are things that should be avoided in the future, such as your point about a large number of A-wings.
So, to the extent this is just an OOC argument that's being conducted on the forum, I'd ask that it remain in Skype unless it has more of a direct bearing on the RP, or if one or the other of you wants to protest a specific event that has occurred.
On a personal note, I think firing 256 concussion missiles in one turn is cheap. But so is deliberately targeting a ship's bridge, in my opinion. I think this is a case of "live by the sword, die by the sword." That is, if you're trying to affect a quick and easy tactical advantage, you can expect your opponent is going to do the same.
Jace Varitek
Former Jedi Padawan
Pilot of the gas tanker Taloraan Sunrise
|
| |
|
|
| Admiral_Rullon | Date: Friday, 07 Aug 2015, 1:24 PM | Message # 3 |
 Ensign
Group: Users
Messages: 13
Status: Offline
| Replies in General
1. I think one every ten seconds is optimistic, its a freighter without autoloaders, which nearly all military ships do have. They're not the small fighter size ones they're specifically stated to be the Medium type (there are three increments in the most recent sourcebook on the matter (for every weapon) and this grade of torpedo is in between the fighter size ones and the capital ship grade one.
World War II speedloading of torpedoes without an autoloader was around 180 seconds, with the time taken outside of battle to reload safely etc this increases to twenty minutes. Even assuming these are easier to load by a considerable factor. Firing once every ten seconds and with the very basic targeting computer rating the ship has (as a civilian grade frigate) you'd be firing it without telemmetry in all probability (blind firing in a direct line) unless your target was stationary. Getting a lock on takes around that time and the same targetting data could only be reused if the ship hasn't moved or altered course.
Space truck with token armament (even stated to be token in Ships Starships of the Galaxy, hence private operators are stated to upgun them often) is what you've got to have as your mindset for the Mobquet, not pocket gunboat. Even if I accepted your one every ten seconds etc numbering system and took a turn as 10-20 seconds its not viable to fire accurately at the range and bearing in mind its a target in their gunsights (which presumably is all they can lock onto as a non military ship) and assuming their sights are the whole 90 degree angle, Remember theyre going one direction, the War Frig the other way, combined total speed is 110 MGLT, if lucky, they might get a long range lock for one turn, without turning and slowing etc bear in mind this is a ship which is not even listed as -having- a targeting computer prior to a couple of years ago.
2. Seems beyond the tactical sensors and computers for a space truck. I've not seen any capital ship fire a concussion missile similarly in our period. Cit needed if you can get one, I don't preclude it being possible for good enough ships with high quality everything. Just a lot to expect for a Mobquet.
3. Righto, so they're the bottom of the barrel in the Navy.
4. They could fire for effect, attempting to replicate flak, yes. Can they point 216 Turbolasers in one direction? No. Sure massed shielding fire has a degree of effectiveness and yes it would probably be very effective on the heavier and slower than fighter grade torps, its just something thats not commonly executed in the actual "story" elements of star wars outside of games... outside of games I dont think there's a remote precedent for the torpspam not including a Torp Sphere's thang. Basically, it's time to stop asking only "is it possible" as a reason to act and start asking "Is it characterful & fitting to do". Torpspam has bothered me for a while and thats because it stops us getting our hands on a hella large number of nice ships since people abuse it
5. Depends on the type and size of projectile. You need signifiant capital assets to put down a really significant fire curtain. Torpspam isn't a staple of canon tactics, legends tactics and is only possible by a quirk of our game system. Lets tone it down.
6. Missile spam means a "relatively helpless" vs capital ships Escort Carrier or totally Civilian Mobquet can in a turn, if close by, smash the deflector shields of a SD down and blow the bridge apart with warheads to spare. Whatever advantages it may have, it is powergaming and exploiting a loophole in our system no other system allows.
On A Wings
Now they're introduced ages ago. By Endor they were operated (according to Guide to Rebellion) on a 1:1:1 basis with X-Wings and Y-Wings with B-Wings being in shortest supply. They're also mass produced at Kuat now now made in rebel workshops; there's less than one A Wng for every 2 X Wings, I've kept them in low numbers than I might. Basically the new canon says they're around and Kuat factory made, so they are.
On Tractor Beams
The rebel fleet is largely defectors, clone wars vets, etc Rullon's flagship is specifically crewed by Mon Cals who are largely vets of the Liberation of Mon Calamari Sector's campaign, plenty of prior experience vs Imperial fighters, equally many crewmen are vets of the Clone Wars who are A) More than able of operating their tractor beam efficiently, especially against unshielded targets. Interceptors may be fast and agile and it is stated fast agile craft can avoid tractor beams if they're more devious or cunning than the operator and are basically very lucky. I'm not saying it would get a lock every time, I'm sure some would just be partial locks or the lock might be broken and the TIE would just be slowed etc; point is a number would be effective, and a number of others should be partially effective to varying degrees.  Have the odds slid in their favour by aiming to tractor TIEs who lack shields and have little mass to make them hard to hold.
You're right theyre not used an awful lot vs TIEs, but thats because TIEs are pretty much worthless in the settings depicted. Just being fast doesn't give any particular advantage (note real world fighters rarely go extremely fast because it limits turning, as star wars space flight is non-newtonian we can assume it's the same). Yes it's probably tricky, it's probably the most interesting thing the Tractor Beam officers have got to do in a while, but the TIE Interceptors lack any countermeasures or shields to make a difference. However, even Vader in a TIE Advanced has fallen foul of a tractor beam before.. and not to the Galaxy's most elite rebels either.
Just as the Tractor Beam crews might not have an awful lot of experience capturing TIEs but equally TIE Pilots don't have much practice evading them do they? It's not the kind of thing you train for as a mass numerical superiority based fighter either since you know you're not worth it. And finally, if any rebels have experience using Tractor beams who would it be? Roving Line units which are used in strikes and special missions.
On Old Stats
Well, yes, speed can be extremely high but in the Alderaan ships defense it's by virtue of a quirk of never having been in sources more recent so we only have their WEG speed rating to go by. I've long thought capships having so many examples higher than 60 MGLT is silly to be honest, but once the stupid DP-20 and Carrack went there, and not just at 70 MGLT but going full on 75 and 80 MGLT respectively.. the Clone Wars dumped more of them ontop too, so did the post Endor ships etc. I think it's use as a Fast Frigate the WarFrig is semi reasonable in that its a brawler "Dwarves are very fast over short distances" Gimli says in LOTR and I think it's fine as a ship which is a fast close range brawler, but in bigger battles its speed must be compromised to stay in formation with its peers -or- it risks isolation and destruction, going slowly it makes a fine bomb magnet. It's excellent for fast assaults but we should at least thank our stars it doesn't have the big long range guns of the Carrack-class or DP-20 (which if it torpedo spammed could wipe out an ISD in one barrage - another argument against it).
I don't think this is an OOC dispute rather than scholarly debate? I respectfully disagree with Adam based on the sources. That's all? I think discussing issues like this is quite useful to clear the air so long as people don't start entering with personal feelings on the line. I simply on torpspamming am asserting it's only possible by a quirk of our game system, and otherwise am just debating with an open mind. Oh and on the Nebulon B2 it's hard to tell you the torpedos aren't anti-fighter, they're not a design which gripped the imagination of anyone enough to get into any other sources to flesh them out and a bit like the Messens SCT, most older Liner designs and some neat ships like the Muurian armed transport, chalked up as "a an X-wing games thing with limited penetration in wider canon of the time" so lack detail.. If there were modern stats of any kind I feel sure it would be clarified that it's likely a Heavy Concussion Missile that it fires unless some source states it's designed to shoot down fighters when it's probably a light missile launcher which certainly can target fighters and plausibly would fire much quicker, especially since it's an Escort Frigate of a modern design with the state of the art in ships computers, sensor arrays and computers, targeting computers etc.
Sigius Rullon
_____________
Vice Admiral, Rebel Alliance Fleet.
Officer in Command of The 7th Roving Line.
|
| |
|
|
|
